Legislature(1999 - 2000)

03/27/2000 05:05 PM House FSH

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
              HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES                                                                              
                         March 27, 2000                                                                                         
                            5:05 p.m.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Representative John Harris, Co-Chair                                                                                            
Representative Carl Morgan, Co-Chair                                                                                            
Representative Fred Dyson                                                                                                       
Representative Jim Whitaker                                                                                                     
Representative Bill Hudson                                                                                                      
Representative Mary Kapsner                                                                                                     
Representative Hal Smalley                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MEMBERS ABSENT                                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
All members present                                                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
OTHER HOUSE MEMBERS PRESENT                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Representative Alan Austerman                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 333                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to the accounting for and appropriations of the                                                                
dive fishery management assessment; and providing for an                                                                        
effective date."                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
     - MOVED HB 333 OUT OF COMMITTEE                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
HOUSE BILL NO. 360                                                                                                              
"An Act relating to registration for commercial set gillnet                                                                     
fishing sites; relating to leases for shore fisheries                                                                           
development; and providing for an effective date."                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
     - HEARD AND HELD                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
PREVIOUS ACTION                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 333                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: DIVE FISHERY MANAGEMENT ASSESSMENT                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
Jrn-Date    Jrn-Page           Action                                                                                           
 2/02/00      2070     (H)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                     
 2/02/00      2070     (H)  FSH, RES, FIN                                                                                       
 2/02/00      2070     (H)  FISCAL NOTE (F&G)                                                                                   
 2/02/00      2071     (H)  GOVERNOR'S TRANSMITTAL LETTER                                                                       
 2/02/00      2071     (H)  REFERRED TO FSH                                                                                     
 3/27/00               (H)  FSH AT  5:00 PM CAPITOL 124                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
BILL: HB 360                                                                                                                  
SHORT TITLE: SET NET SITES/SHORE FISHERIES DEVELOPMT                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Jrn-Date    Jrn-Page           Action                                                                                           
 2/09/00      2149     (H)  READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRALS                                                                     
 2/09/00      2149     (H)  FSH, RES, FIN                                                                                       
 2/09/00      2149     (H)  2 ZERO FISCAL NOTES (F&G, DNR)                                                                      
 2/09/00      2149     (H)  GOVERNOR'S TRANSMITTAL LETTER                                                                       
 2/09/00      2149     (H)  REFERRED TO  FSH                                                                                    
 3/27/00               (H)  FSH AT  5:00 PM CAPITOL 124                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
WITNESS REGISTER                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
GERON BRUCE, Legislative Liaison                                                                                                
Office of the Commissioner                                                                                                      
Department of Fish & Game                                                                                                       
PO Box 25526                                                                                                                    
Juneau, Alaska 99802-5526                                                                                                       
POSITION STATEMENT:   Presented HB 333.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
CAROL CARROLL, Director                                                                                                         
Central Office                                                                                                                  
Division of Support Services                                                                                                    
Department of Natural Resources                                                                                                 
400 Willoughby Avenue, 5th Floor                                                                                                
Juneau, Alaska 99801-1724                                                                                                       
POSITION STATEMENT:   Presented HB 360.                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
RICK THOMPSON, Regional Manager                                                                                                 
Land - Southcentral Region Office                                                                                               
Division of Mining, Land and Water                                                                                              
Department of Natural Resources                                                                                                 
3601 C Street, Suite 1080                                                                                                       
Anchorage, Alaska 99503-5937                                                                                                    
POSITION STATEMENT:   Testified on HB 360.                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
SUE ASPELUND, Bristol Bay Setnetter                                                                                             
PO Box 1715                                                                                                                     
Cordova, Alaska 99574                                                                                                           
POSITION STATEMENT:   Testified in opposition to HB 360.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
TOM CHURCH, Prince William Sound Setnetter                                                                                      
PO Box 406                                                                                                                      
Cordova, Alaska 99574                                                                                                           
POSITION STATEMENT:   Testified in opposition to HB 360.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
DAN CHALUP, Representative                                                                                                      
Kachemak Bay Fish Producers Co-op                                                                                               
RDO Red Mountain                                                                                                                
Homer, Alaska 99603                                                                                                             
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in  opposition to HB 360.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
SANDY UMLAUF, President                                                                                                         
Ugashik Set Net Association                                                                                                     
PO Box 2407                                                                                                                     
Soldotna, Alaska 99669                                                                                                          
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in  opposition to HB 360.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
PAUL SHADURA II, Kenai Setnetter                                                                                                
PO Box 1632                                                                                                                     
Kenai, Alaska 99611-1632                                                                                                        
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in  opposition to HB 360.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
DAN OGG, Kodiak Setnetter                                                                                                       
PO Box 2754                                                                                                                     
Kodiak, Alaska 99615-2754                                                                                                       
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in  opposition to HB 360.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MIKE NUGENT, Kodiak Setnetter                                                                                                   
PO Box 1937                                                                                                                     
Kodiak, Alaska 99615-1937                                                                                                       
POSITION STATEMENT:  Asked a question regarding the moratorium.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
AL BAUMAN, President                                                                                                            
Kvichak Setnetters Association                                                                                                  
PO Box 91118                                                                                                                    
Anchorage, Alaska 99509-1118                                                                                                    
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in  opposition to HB 360.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
ROGER KUCHENBECKER, Bristol Bay Fisher                                                                                          
PO Box 876608                                                                                                                   
Wasilla, Alaska 99687-6608                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in  opposition to HB 360.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
JAMES PAHL, Prince William Sound Fisher                                                                                         
PO Box 179                                                                                                                      
Cordova, Alaska 99574                                                                                                           
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in  opposition to HB 360.                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
AL WHALEY, Representative                                                                                                       
Prince William Sound Set Netters Association                                                                                    
PO Box 671789                                                                                                                   
Chugiak, Alaska 99567-1789                                                                                                      
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in opposition to HB 360.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
KARL KIRCHER, Executive Director                                                                                                
Kenai Fishermen's Association                                                                                                   
43961 Kalifonsky Beach Road                                                                                                     
Soldotna, Alaska 99669                                                                                                          
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in opposition to HB 360.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
KIM RICE,(PH) Vice President                                                                                                    
Egegik Set Net Association                                                                                                      
(Address not provided)                                                                                                          
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in opposition to HB 360.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
LAUREN MOSS (PH), Prince William Sound Setnetter                                                                                
(Address not provided)                                                                                                          
Girdwood, Alaska 99587                                                                                                          
POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified in opposition to HB 360.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
ACTION NARRATIVE                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 00-10, SIDE A                                                                                                              
Number 0001                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIRMAN  JOHN HARRIS  called  the House  Special Committee  on                                                              
Fisheries meeting  to order at 5:05  p.m.  Members present  at the                                                              
call to  order were Representatives  Harris, Morgan,  Whitaker and                                                              
Smalley.   Representatives  Dyson, Hudson  and Kapsner arrived  as                                                              
the meeting was in progress.                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
HB 333 - DIVE FISHERY MANAGEMENT ASSESSMENT                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIRMAN HARRIS announced the  first order of business as House                                                              
Bill   333,  "An   Act  relating   to  the   accounting  for   and                                                              
appropriations  of the  dive  fishery management  assessment;  and                                                              
providing for an effective date."                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 0121                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
GERON  BRUCE, Legislative  Liaison,  Office  of the  Commissioner,                                                              
Department of  Fish & Game, came  before the committee  to present                                                              
the bill.  This  is a piece of legislation that  the Department of                                                              
Fish  & Game  requested  and worked  on  in cooperation  with  the                                                              
Southeast  Alaska Regional  Dive  Fisheries Association  [SARDFA].                                                              
This  bill  is an  example  of  private  industry working  with  a                                                              
government  agency to  bring  about programs  that  both feel  are                                                              
beneficial.   He explained that  dive fishers in  Southeast Alaska                                                              
and  the department  were  both  frustrated  in that  attempts  to                                                              
expand  the [assessment]  of the  stocks were  limited because  of                                                              
funding.  As a result, dive fishers  stepped forward and indicated                                                              
their willingness to pay an assessment  above and beyond what they                                                              
already pay through normal fisheries  business taxes to go towards                                                              
stock assessment  and research to  help make additional  resources                                                              
available  and  to expand  the  fishery.   This  bill,  therefore,                                                              
reclassifies  the funds  collected under  the assessments  as non-                                                              
general fund program receipts.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 0395                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIRMAN HARRIS  indicated that  the bill is  self-explanatory.                                                              
He entertained a motion to move it out of committee.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 0423                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE BILL  HUDSON made a motion to move  HB 333, version                                                              
1-GH2022.A, out  of committee with individual  recommendations and                                                              
attached fiscal  notes; he asked  unanimous consent.   There being                                                              
no objection, HB 333 so moved from  the House Special Committee on                                                              
Fisheries.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIRMAN  HARRIS called  for a  brief at-ease  at 5:10 p.m.  in                                                              
order to hand the gavel over to Co-chairman Morgan.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIRMAN CARL MORGAN  called the meeting back to  order at 5:13                                                              
p.m.                                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
HB 360 - SET NET SITES/SHORE FISHERIES DEVELOPMT                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIRMAN MORGAN  announced the next order of  business as House                                                              
Bill  360, "An  Act relating  to registration  for commercial  set                                                              
gillnet  fishing sites;  relating  to leases  for shore  fisheries                                                              
development; and providing for an effective date."                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 0465                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CAROL  CARROLL,  Director,  Central Office,  Division  of  Support                                                              
Services,  Department  of  Natural   Resources,  came  before  the                                                              
committee to present  the bill.  She explained that  last year the                                                              
shore  fisheries  program  was reduced  by  $200,000  leaving  the                                                              
department  with $100,000  to  run a  program  that they  couldn't                                                              
afford.   At the time of the  budget cut, the  department informed                                                              
the legislature that in order to  run some type of shore fisheries                                                              
program  they would  have to come  back with  legislation.   House                                                              
Bill 360  is the  department's attempt  to devise  a program  that                                                              
they can run with  the amount of money left in  their budget.  She                                                              
noted that  shore fishers  pay a  fee of $300  a year,  which goes                                                              
into the general  fund.  The department, however,  is only allowed                                                              
to expend  $100,000 of those  fees.   The bill proposes  a program                                                              
with  a lesser  level of  service.   For example,  there would  no                                                              
longer  be  a lease  program  and  a means  to  resolve  conflicts                                                              
between users.  Those in disagreement  could either use mediation,                                                              
arbitration or the court system.                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 0756                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON stated  it seems that going to mediation                                                              
and/or the  court system is a lengthy  process.  In that  way, the                                                              
fish would be gone.  He's worried  that some disputes would not be                                                              
settled in  a reasonable  amount of time  and therefore end  up in                                                              
violence.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MS. CARROLL replied there has been testimony to that effect.                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 0816                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HAL  SMALLEY stated he has heard  from the industry                                                              
that they  would like to keep  the existing shore  fisheries lease                                                              
program.   They have indicated that  nothing is broken so  why try                                                              
to fix it.  He asked Ms. Carroll  whether she is saying that there                                                              
is no longer a program since the funds have been cut.                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
MS. CARROLL  replied there  is $100,000 for  a program,  but right                                                              
now there  is a moratorium on  any new shore fisheries  leases and                                                              
the Department  of Natural  Resources  is doing  what they  can to                                                              
keep up with any conflicts and adjudications.                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 0873                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE SMALLEY  asked Ms.  Carroll to indicate  the number                                                              
of challenges.   He agrees with  Representative Dyson in  that the                                                              
fishing  season   would  be  gone   by  the  time  there   is  any                                                              
adjudication  by using  mediation,  arbitration  and/or the  court                                                              
system.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MS. CARROLL replied  she's not sure of the numbers.   She deferred                                                              
the question  to Mr.  Rick Thompson of  the Department  of Natural                                                              
Resources.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 0937                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
RICK  THOMPSON,  Regional  Manager,  Land  -  Southcentral  Region                                                              
Office, Division of Mining, Land  and Water, Department of Natural                                                              
Resources,  testified  via  teleconference  from  Anchorage.    He                                                              
doesn't have  specific numbers  with him, but  he can say  that in                                                              
the past  several years the department  has worked hard  to reduce                                                              
the number  of withstanding  conflicts.   He noted that  conflicts                                                              
tend to arise  with new applications  for a lease, which  can take                                                              
anywhere from 12 months to 18 months to adjudicate.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SMALLEY  asked  Mr.  Thompson whether  a  site  is                                                              
fished when it is being adjudicated.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MR.  THOMPSON replied  it depends  on the  type of  conflict.   He                                                              
noted that a person  does not need a lease to fish  a site, but in                                                              
order to get the lease any conflict has to be resolved.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 1029                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SMALLEY commented  that  in Cook  Inlet, where  he                                                              
used to fish,  conflicts tended to come with new  leaseholder.  In                                                              
that way, a person moved in on a  site and if there wasn't a lease                                                              
or some  method  of showing  that the  site was taken  it was  not                                                              
fished.   According  to  his  recollection,  a new  purchaser  was                                                              
allowed to fish until there was a ruling.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. THOMPSON stated, if a lease is  not involved, the first person                                                              
on the site has the right to fish that site.                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 1101                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked Mr. Thompson  whether there would be an                                                              
implicit  or explicit  transfer of  the site  with the  sale of  a                                                              
setnet permit with the new registration system.                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR.  THOMPSON  answered  that  the  registration  sites  would  be                                                              
transferable.                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 1164                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked whether  there is a value in the site,                                                              
as well as the setnet permit.  He  further asked whether sites are                                                              
owned and controlled by the state.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. THOMPSON  answered a site is  exclusive to a  leaseholder when                                                              
that holder is fishing, otherwise it's public land.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HUDSON  asked  whether  a  site  is  available  to                                                              
somebody only when it has been abandoned.                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
MR. THOMPSON answered that is correct.                                                                                          
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON asked whether a lease is issued annually.                                                                 
                                                                                                                                
MR. THOMPSON  answered, currently,  a lease is  issued for  a ten-                                                              
year period.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE HUDSON  asked whether a leaseholder  can sublease a                                                              
permit.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
MR.  THOMPSON  answered a  leaseholder  can  assign his  lease  to                                                              
another qualified fisher.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 1286                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON stated that  many sites have been in the same                                                              
family for 50 years, and quite a  few of them have had significant                                                              
improvements  made  to  them.   He  cited  landing  strips,  water                                                              
systems, beach roads  and generators as examples.   He can see how                                                              
an annual  registration system would cause  a lot of anxiety.   Is                                                              
he correct in saying  that as long as the same  permit is in force                                                              
a  person is  not  in danger  of  losing his  site  under the  new                                                              
registration system?                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
MS. CARROLL answered she believes that is correct.                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
MR. THOMPSON  stated existing leaseholders would  automatically be                                                              
granted  a  registration site  for  their  site upon  the  natural                                                              
expiration of their lease.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 1385                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON  said that in  the areas where he  has fished                                                              
in Bristol  Bay there  are always  those who  set their  outboards                                                              
towards  the  channel  from  the beach,  which  raises  the  blood                                                              
pressure  of those  on  the beach.   He  asked  what protection  a                                                              
leaseholder has in that case.                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
MR.  THOMPSON  replied,  under  the  current  program,  sites  are                                                              
surveyed and  marked.  There is  a certain distance  between nets,                                                              
otherwise   it  becomes   an  enforcement   issue  involving   the                                                              
Department of Fish & Game.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 1462                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  HUDSON  asked  whether  a  person can  set  a  net                                                              
outside his area.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
MR. THOMPSON  answered that some  districts allow that  to happen,                                                              
but not all.                                                                                                                    
                                                                                                                                
Number 1523                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  SMALLEY said at  one time a  person could  fish as                                                              
far offshore as  the net could go, and at times  the beach fishers                                                              
ran a  foul with  the drift fishers  for coming  too close  to the                                                              
shore.  As a  result, a limit was set to 1.5 miles  from mean high                                                              
tide.   He noted that  in Cook Inlet, where  he used to  fish, the                                                              
problems were  the result  of new fishers  setting their  nets and                                                              
eventually encroaching on another person's site.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
Number 1572                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE  DYSON stated  that in  the district  where he  has                                                              
fished the jurisdiction  for setnetters and driftnetters  is about                                                              
the range of a shotgun.  [The comment was followed by laughter.]                                                                
                                                                                                                                
[THE  RECORD  REFLECTS THAT  THE  GAVEL  WAS  HANDED BACK  TO  CO-                                                              
CHAIRMAN HARRIS]                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIRMAN HARRIS opened the meeting to public testimony.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 1622                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SUE ASPELUND, Bristol Bay Setnetter,  testified via teleconference                                                              
from Anchorage.  She has setnetted  in the Naknek-Kvichak district                                                              
for 20 years and has been involved  with the shore fisheries lease                                                              
program for a great number of years.   She currently holds a shore                                                              
fishery lease.   She is totally opposed to the language  in HB 360                                                              
and SB 258,  the companion bill in  the Senate.  She  has seen the                                                              
program work  very successfully in  the Naknek-Kvichak area.   Her                                                              
family has  had the site for over  50 years.  Her daughter  is the                                                              
fourth generation to  fish on the site and despite  that they have                                                              
had to  use the Department  of Natural Resources  for adjudication                                                              
issues.   Ms. Aspelund further said  that lease holders  pay a fee                                                              
and they  deserve to have adjudication  service.  This  bill would                                                              
totally  destabilize  what  has  evolved  into  a  functional  and                                                              
effective  program.    As  Representative   Dyson  has  indicated,                                                              
infrastructure is  often developed on  the adjacent upland  with a                                                              
ten-year lease  period and knowledge  of some protection.   Setnet                                                              
fisheries  are unique  in  that oftentimes  the  entire family  is                                                              
present  at a  site  because of  the  stability  that the  current                                                              
system has  provided.  She  doesn't believe that  the registration                                                              
program is  going to work in terms  of drawing a map  and plugging                                                              
in GPS  [global positioning system]  coordinates, for  people make                                                              
mistakes.   She cited that when  her site was surveyed  the entire                                                              
area was surveyed incorrectly by half a site.  She said,                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
     If  that can  happen  with people  who  are skilled  and                                                                   
     trained in  their field and  have all kinds  of licenses                                                                   
     to do  what they  do, think how  complex the issues  are                                                                   
     going to be when we as individuals  are trying to take a                                                                   
     coordinate with GPS and turn and sketch it.                                                                                
                                                                                                                                
MS. ASPELUND continued.   When she was on the  Naknek-Kvichak fish                                                              
and game advisory  committee, the Department of  Natural Resources                                                              
was instrumental in settling a major  conflict on her beach, which                                                              
if it had gone  in one direction would have  required every single                                                              
setnetter on that beach to move his  site.  It was only because of                                                              
the  Department  of  Natural  Resources   that  the  conflict  was                                                              
successfully resolved.   She encouraged  the committee  members to                                                              
keep the  bill in committee,  unless significant changes  are made                                                              
to it.   Program receipt authority  is a possible option,  but she                                                              
would not continue  to pay a $300-lease  fee, if this is  going to                                                              
be the only protection for her site.                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 1829                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE MARY  KAPSNER pointed out  to Ms. Aspelund  that if                                                              
this legislation does not pass there  will be no protection.  It's                                                              
better than  nothing.  It  might not  provide as many  services as                                                              
before, but in its absence there will be nothing.                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 1876                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON  asked Ms. Aspelund whether he  heard her say                                                              
that,  if  the  present  program   can  be  retained,  the  setnet                                                              
community  might  be open  to  an increase  in  fees  to fund  the                                                              
program.                                                                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
MS.  ASPELUND replied,  "No."   The  fees  that  they already  pay                                                              
adequately  fund  the program.    She  was talking  about  program                                                              
receipt  authority in  which  the user  fees  actually go  towards                                                              
funding the program.                                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 1933                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
TOM  CHURCH,   Prince  William  Sound  Setnetter,   testified  via                                                              
teleconference from Cordova.  He  is speaking in opposition to the                                                              
bill.   According  to  his understanding,  the  old program  costs                                                              
about  $300,000 a  year  to administer,  and  the setnetters  were                                                              
satisfied with that  program.  The fiscal note  indicates that the                                                              
program receipts bring in about $360,000  a year, which equates to                                                              
a surplus.  The department has indicated  that they spend anywhere                                                              
from $95,000 to $100,000 to administer  the current program, which                                                              
equates  to about  26  percent of  the revenue  generated.   As  a                                                              
result,  the setnetters  are  getting less  service  for the  same                                                              
amount of  fee.   The way to  go, he  said, is to  get rid  of the                                                              
moratorium, return  to the old program,  and if necessary  ask for                                                              
more  money to  administer  the program.    The old  program is  a                                                              
proven program  of stability and  conflict resolution.   A lengthy                                                              
and  costly  process of  mediation  and  arbitration would  be  in                                                              
addition to the fees that setnetters currently pay.                                                                             
                                                                                                                                
Number 2042                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
DAN  CHALUP, Representative,  Kachemak Bay  Fish Producers  Co-op,                                                              
testified via  teleconference from Homer.   The co-op  consists of                                                              
16 members  who are all setnetters.   The co-op is opposed  to the                                                              
bill for the reasons the previous  testifiers have indicated.  Why                                                              
change something  that is working  well?  The co-op  also believes                                                              
the money  that setnetters are paying  should be allocated  to the                                                              
Department of Natural Resources to support the program.                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 2102                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
SANDY UMLAUF,  President, Ugashik  Set Net Association,  testified                                                              
via  teleconference  from  Kenai.     The  association  represents                                                              
approximately 65 setnet permits.   She has setnetted in Cook Inlet                                                              
and  has  encouraged  other  fishers  to  purchase  shore  fishery                                                              
leases.  The association requests  that the committee members vote                                                              
against  the legislation.   The old  program was  more than  self-                                                              
sustaining.    It  offered  stability  and provided  a  means  for                                                              
conflict  resolution.   Why throw away  a self-sustaining  program                                                              
that  was  working?   There  was  general  satisfaction  with  the                                                              
program  amongst  the  setnetters.   Some  believe  that  the  new                                                              
program  is being  instituted  so  that the  state  can avoid  the                                                              
litigation costs  of conflict  resolution.  If  that is  the case,                                                              
she said,  the thinking is  wrong.  This  new program can  lead to                                                              
many  different  types  of  litigations.    The  self-registration                                                              
program uses  GPS coordinates  for the  location of fishing  nets,                                                              
when the  U.S. Department  of Defense  continuously scrambles  the                                                              
outgoing  GPS  satellite  data  coordinates.   As  a  result,  the                                                              
coordinates  can be  up to  100 feet  off creating  disagreements.                                                              
She said,                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
     This sort of discrepancy is  critical in areas where the                                                                   
     shore  fishery leases  are stacked  in to the  available                                                                   
     tidelands exactly 300 feet apart.   One setnet fisherman                                                                   
     can say  his GPS showed one  thing and his  neighbor can                                                                   
     show  him something  else,  that their  GPS  coordinates                                                                   
     will   show  on  different   days.     These  types   of                                                                   
     disagreements  can  wind  up   being  settled  with  our                                                                   
     readily  available  guns.     Who  do  you  suppose  the                                                                   
     families will  be suing then?   The deepest  pocket they                                                                   
     can find, and  that would be our great state  of Alaska.                                                                   
     If the fishery  does become disorderly because  of shore                                                                   
     fishery disputes  the Department of Fish &  Game will be                                                                   
     forces to  close down the  setnet fishery.   Once again,                                                                   
     opening up the threat of litigation  to the state by the                                                                   
     fishermen  who were  able and  ready to  be fishing  and                                                                   
     unable  to fish.   The  new  shore fishery  registration                                                                   
     program  does  not allow  state  law enforcement  to  do                                                                   
     anything  with  individual  fishermen  disputes  on  the                                                                   
     beach.  Enforcement would basically  have to tell all of                                                                   
     the  setnet  fishermen involved  in  a dispute  to  take                                                                   
     their  nets out of  the water,  stop fishing, and  enter                                                                   
     voluntary arbitration  or go to court over  the dispute.                                                                   
     The  season would  long be over  before those  fishermen                                                                   
     would  get  resolution of  where  they could  set  their                                                                   
     nets.   Now, this  bill, without  comment or  commercial                                                                   
     fishermen's  input,   (indisc.)  the  old   program  and                                                                   
     replaces  it  with  a  self-registration  system.    And                                                                   
     fishermen  are expected to  pay the  same fee.   Ugashik                                                                   
     Set  Net Association  strongly opposes  the changes  and                                                                   
     urges you to support the current program.                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
Number 2311                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
PAUL  SHADURA II,  Kenai Setnetter,  testified via  teleconference                                                              
from  Kenai.    His  family  has  been  setnetting  in  Kenai  for                                                              
approximately  100 years.   He remembers  stories from  his father                                                              
and  uncles about  the  days of  having  to be  first-in-time  and                                                              
first-in-place.  They  would start staking their sites  as soon as                                                              
the snow  started to  melt.  In  that regard,  leases have  gone a                                                              
long way  in providing continuity.   In  the area that  he setnets                                                              
there are  about 50 to 60  nets within a  4 mile by 1.5  mile area                                                              
out from  the beach, and  the Department of  Fish & Game  will not                                                              
write a  ticket if the  nets are 580  feet apart.   Without setnet                                                              
leases, there  would not be an  orderly fishery whatsoever,  and a                                                              
shotgun might be right for the types  of confrontations that would                                                              
ensue.   He opposes the  bill.  The  fees are sufficient  to cover                                                              
the costs  of the current  program.   He suggested increasing  the                                                              
fee for new members  as a means to get more funds.   It would also                                                              
be more  advantageous and cost  effective to break  the moratorium                                                              
rather than  to try and  implement the  program called for  in the                                                              
bill.  A new  program would probably cost the state  more money to                                                              
try to implement.                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                
Number 2448                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
DAN  OGG,  Kodiak Setnetter,  testified  via  teleconference  from                                                              
Kodiak.  He  falls in line with  a lot of the  previous testimony.                                                              
He sees language  in the bill  as causing problems.   For example,                                                              
on page  7, subparagraph (j), the  language allows for  anybody to                                                              
register  a site  within  three years  after  the previous  person                                                              
registered his site.   The language doesn't give  the first person                                                              
a priority, which  allows for "claim jumping"  and disorderliness.                                                              
But, if the language is changed so  that it's enforceable upon the                                                              
persons who have registered areas  as it stands now, it just might                                                              
work.                                                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
Number 2533                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MIKE NUGENT,  Kodiak Setnetter, testified via  teleconference from                                                              
Kodiak.   He asked Ms. Carroll  whether the moratorium is  for new                                                              
sites or for renewals as well.                                                                                                  
                                                                                                                                
MS. CARROLL replied, she believes,  that the moratorium covers all                                                              
leases, not just new ones.                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
MR.  THOMPSON  stated, at  the  current  time, the  Department  of                                                              
Natural  Resources  is  not accepting  any  applications  for  new                                                              
leases.   The department  is trying  to renew  the ones  that have                                                              
expired during the interim period.                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                
Number 2606                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIRMAN HARRIS announced  that he does not intend  to move the                                                              
bill  out of  committee  today.   He  plans  to only  take  public                                                              
testimony.                                                                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
Number 2629                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
AL BAUMAN,  President, Kvichak  Setnetters Association,  testified                                                              
via teleconference from  Anchorage.  He has fished  in Bristol Bay                                                              
for about 25 years.   He applied for his first lease  in 1983.  He                                                              
has seen the shore fishery program  develop over the years, and it                                                              
has always  worked closely  with the fishers.   In 1993,  when the                                                              
fees were raised from $150 to $300  to cover expenses, the cost of                                                              
the program was just over $200,000  and there were four employees.                                                              
The program is down to one employee,  but the fee has remained the                                                              
same when the actual cost, aside  from labor, is somewhere between                                                              
$30,000 and $50,000.   This legislation, along with  SB 258, would                                                              
gut  the   current  program.    There   would  be  no   new  lease                                                              
applications;   no  amending  of   existing  diagrams,   which  is                                                              
necessary from time to time because  of erosion or the elimination                                                              
of  a site  to make  another one  better; no  renewal of  existing                                                              
leases; no  conflict mediation; and  no public notices of  the new                                                              
registered  sites,  which  is  a   crucial  vehicle  in  diverting                                                              
conflict.   The Kvichak  Setnetters Association  is wondering  why                                                              
they would be paying  for this new program, for they  would not be                                                              
getting  any  new  services.    He  doesn't  know  of  any  setnet                                                              
organization  or any  setnetter who  backs  this new  registration                                                              
program.  The only way that he can  see to continue paying a $300-                                                              
fee is if it is applied specifically to the program.                                                                            
                                                                                                                                
Number 2777                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
ROGER   KUCHENBECKER,   Bristol    Bay   Fisher,   testified   via                                                              
teleconference  from Mat-Su.   He is very  much against  the bill.                                                              
It is  ill-advised, and  it shouldn't proceed  any further  in the                                                              
legislative process.   He supports the present  system for various                                                              
reasons.  The main reason is because  there are maps showing where                                                              
the setnet sites  are located, which is very user  friendly, lends                                                              
stability, and it  works.  An advantage to the old  system is that                                                              
the department can  adjudicate when there are  conflicts, which is                                                              
very  important  to a  lot  of fishers.    It  is much  more  cost                                                              
effective  than individual  fishers  having  to resolve  conflicts                                                              
themselves.  Another reason to oppose  the bill is the GPS system.                                                              
There isn't  enough accuracy with  the hand-held units  that would                                                              
be  required  under  this new  registration  system,  which  would                                                              
result  in  all  sorts  of conflicts.    In  speaking  with  other                                                              
fishers, the  vast majority  do not  support the new  registration                                                              
system  and the  fees  involved.   They feel  that  they would  be                                                              
paying  out money  and  not  getting that  much  of  a service  in                                                              
return.                                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                
Number 2891                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
JAMES   PAHL,  Prince   William   Sound  Fisher,   testified   via                                                              
teleconference from  Cordova.  He opposes the bill.   He's worried                                                              
about the  language in the bill  that indicates an auction  to the                                                              
highest bidder.   It seems that an auction would  cost money given                                                              
all the details involved.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 2938                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
AL  WHALEY,  Representative,  Prince  William  Sound  Set  Netters                                                              
Association, testified  via teleconference from Anchorage.   He is                                                              
a setnet permit holder.  He thinks  HB 360 is a wonderful bill for                                                              
the Department  of Natural Resources,  but he thinks it's  a lousy                                                              
bill for  setnetters.   It is completely  based on funding  needs.                                                              
It is not based  on logic in any way.  Setnetters  have paid a fee                                                              
for  years, and  essentially the  only thing  that they  get is  a                                                              
section  in the  water  to put  a net  and  a means  to resolve  a                                                              
conflict.   If the bill  was to pass,  setnetters would  simply be                                                              
paying money for nothing.                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
TAPE 00-10, SIDE B                                                                                                              
Number 0001                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. WHALEY  continued.  He is opposed  to the bill, and  he hasn't                                                              
met a  setnetter yet  who isn't opposed  to it  either.   He feels                                                              
fortunate to  be a part  of Prince William  Sound, for there  is a                                                              
small group  of setnetters  and there  is not  a lot of  conflict.                                                              
But in  the event  of a  conflict, because  of the remoteness,  it                                                              
would not  be resolved  in an  amicable fashion.   He wonders  why                                                              
setnetters  would have to  pay the  state a few  of $300  when the                                                              
cost  to  resolve  a  conflict  would  have to  be  paid  by  them                                                              
directly.                                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                
Number 2918                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
KARL KIRCHER,  Executive Director, Kenai Fishermen's  Association,                                                              
testified via teleconference  from Kenai.  He referred  to a memo,                                                              
dated October 5,  1992, from the Department of  Natural Resources,                                                              
which details how the increased rental  fees for the shore fishery                                                              
leases were  calculated to ensure  that adequate  program receipts                                                              
were  collected to  cover  administrative costs.    The memo  also                                                              
refers to  AS 38.05.082(c), which  states that the  director shall                                                              
establish a reasonable  rent for shore fishery  development leases                                                              
that equals  the administrative  costs in  processing a  leasehold                                                              
application.   Given  that logic,  he  is assuming  that the  fees                                                              
would be reduced  to cover the approximate $100,000  that it would                                                              
take to  run the new  program, which  would result in  $200,000 of                                                              
less revenues  brought in under the  old program.  In  effect, the                                                              
$200,000  cut  made  by  the legislature  in  1999  to  the  shore                                                              
fisheries budget that  resulted in this bill would  be offset by a                                                              
$200,000 reduction in revenue.  The  net effect is that setnetters                                                              
would have  a program that costs  less, offers less,  and provides                                                              
less  protection and  stability than  the  original shore  fishery                                                              
lease  program, and  because  of AS  38.05.082(c)  the effect  for                                                              
either program is the same.                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
MR. KIRCHER  does not see  the need to  change a program  that has                                                              
worked well  for so  long, a program  which brought stability  and                                                              
development to  the fishery.   He asked  the committee  members to                                                              
look closely  at the circumstances  surrounding the  original cuts                                                              
to the funds that were clearly raised  for a specific purpose.  He                                                              
also asked the  committee members to inquire as to  whether or not                                                              
there are  any specific areas of  the shore fishery  lease program                                                              
that  are  financially  or  administratively   problematic.    The                                                              
industry would be more than willing  to address these issues.  For                                                              
now, he said,  Department of Natural Resources  should continue to                                                              
issue renewals  in order  not to  harm those  whose leases  expire                                                              
while  the problem  is  being resolved.    He  announced that  the                                                              
association does  not support the  bill, and that  the association                                                              
would be willing to work towards  reinstating the old program.  He                                                              
noted  that  the  Senate  Resources  Committee  is  working  on  a                                                              
committee substitute  for a type of program receipt  accounting so                                                              
that  the funds  raised by  the program  would  be recognized  and                                                              
therefore make legislative funding  for the program more likely in                                                              
the future.                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
Number 2776                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
KIM  RICE  (ph),  Vice  President,  Egegik  Set  Net  Association,                                                              
testified via  teleconference from  an off-net  location.   He has                                                              
setnetted  in   Bristol  Bay  for   15  years  with   his  family.                                                              
Setnetters are paying their way and  the program works.  He thinks                                                              
that  the solution  is  to approach  the  finance committees  with                                                              
recommendations  from the committee  members of the  House Special                                                              
Committee on Fisheries and ask them  to restore the funding to the                                                              
program.  It is necessary for the  survival of the fishery.  It is                                                              
mostly an  Alaskan fishery,  and the  fishers deserve respect  for                                                              
their hard  work.  The money, he  said, is more than  enough.  The                                                              
conflicts  of five  to seven  years ago  have nothing  to do  with                                                              
today.   The facts indicate that  the problematic areas  have been                                                              
resolved, for  the most part.   Setnetters need the security  of a                                                              
ten-year  lease.   He reiterated  the  approach should  be a  non-                                                              
general fund  receipt program similar  to what the  legislature is                                                              
trying to do  for the dive fishery.   The setnet program  has been                                                              
around for  20 years, yet somehow  they have been forsaken  in the                                                              
process.   The state makes money  off of the setnetters,  and with                                                              
the lack of  conflicts there is going  to be less of a  need for a                                                              
large  staff.    He  further  commented   that  the  fishers  were                                                              
contacted  about this  bill after  it  was written,  and that  the                                                              
Governor must  not know  what is  going on, for  this is  a stable                                                              
fishery and  helps to stabilize the  entire state.  He  hopes that                                                              
the committee members table the bill.                                                                                           
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIRMAN  HARRIS  pointed  out   to  Mr.  Rice  (ph)  that  the                                                              
legislature,  by constitution,  cannot  dedicate  funds, but  that                                                              
there are other ways to get funds close to where they belong.                                                                   
                                                                                                                                
Number 2626                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
LAUREN MOSS  (PH), Prince William  Sound Setnetter,  testified via                                                              
teleconference  from an off-net  location.  She  is a  resident of                                                              
Girdwood.   She  is  a  member of  the  Prince William  Sound  Set                                                              
Netters  Association.   She opposes  the bill.   It holds  nothing                                                              
that  is  functional for  setnetters.    They  would like  to  see                                                              
funding restored to the present program  because what is the point                                                              
in fixing a program  if it isn't broken.  An  increase of $360,000                                                              
a year  to $3.6  million a  year is  a pretty  big increase  for a                                                              
proposed  system that  would  be ineffective;  a  program that  is                                                              
poorly written and  full of holes.  She cited a  renewal system on                                                              
a yearly  basis does  not guarantee that  fees would  not increase                                                              
every time the  legislature cuts Department of  Natural Resource's                                                              
budget, and  she's a fisher that  can't afford an increase  in the                                                              
fees.   She also questions how  the department can  spend $300,000                                                              
for  one part-time  employee.   She suggested  that the  committee                                                              
members  ask  for  an accounting  of  that  budget  before  moving                                                              
forward in  judging the bill.   She further noted  that litigation                                                              
costs  are going  to increase  due to  GPS inaccuracies.   In  the                                                              
district  where  she setnets,  certain  sites  are only  300  feet                                                              
apart, and an  inaccuracy of over 100 feet would  set everybody on                                                              
top  of  each  other.   A  dispute  would  put  everybody  out  of                                                              
business.   She would  like to see  the entire  bill killed.   She                                                              
appreciates the efforts being made  to rewrite the bill by putting                                                              
the funds  into a lease program  account that can  be appropriated                                                              
solely for the shore fishery lease program.                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
CO-CHAIRMAN HARRIS closed the meeting to public testimony.                                                                      
                                                                                                                                
[HB 360 WAS HELD IN COMMITTEE FOR FURTHER CONSIDERATION]                                                                        
                                                                                                                                
Number 2440                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
ADJOURNMENT                                                                                                                     
                                                                                                                                
There being no further business before  the committee, Co-Chairman                                                              
Harris adjourned the House Special  Committee on Fisheries meeting                                                              
at 6:07 p.m                                                                                                                     

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